I'm speaking with Serina Kammuller and Neosha Pendergraft, both seniors majoring in Communications Design with an emphasis in art direction at Pratt Institute. We talk about what art direction means to them, Pratt's ComD curriculum, and their current projects exploring narrative and storytelling.
This interview was conducted at WPIR's station on February 23, 2020.
I: Welcome to Dezign Skool, where each week I interview a different student and a different major about what it is we do here and why. I'm Isabel, in case anyone is listening who didn't know that. I'm a quote unquote graphic designer, whatever that is. I'm gonna go ahead and introduce you guys before it goes any further. I am here today with Serina Kammuller and Neosha Pendergraft. Hi! Thanks for being here. So, we are in the same major, Communications Design, but we have different concentrations. Neosha, we were in the same classes sophomore year, which is when I started to get to know you. And Serina, the first time we hung out was that gallery opening. We did not have a class together. But as far as curriculum goes, you guys only just recently have been diverting in your own direction. One thing I'm asking everyone who comes on is: can you describe what exactly your major is? Let's start with ComD. Generally, how would you describe ComD, aside from its concentrations?
N: I feel like it’s kind of unfair to group them all together in the first place, because they’re all so different.
S: I think there is a string through all of them. I think what they're trying to do, which is in the name itself, is to communicate a message, using different mediums. Because fine art isn't necessarily trying to communicate a message... maybe not clearly, anyway. But in ComD I feel like that's kind of our point.
N: I don't know. I feel like everything is communicating a message in some way, shape or form. Especially in other majors, fine art, etc.
I: This is interesting though, you’re right, it's almost as though instead of medium or aesthetics, our major is essentially about clarity. Yeah, you're right, though. I think our major is so open. You can do whatever as long as you’re communicating something.
S: I that was initially what they were trying to do. And then it was just kind of like, “do what you want.”
I: Yeah. At least now, with the recent curriculum changes, ComD kind of opened up to being truly about whatever.
N: But I appreciate that a lot because I mean, I know Serina and I talk about this a lot… we really were not a fan of how it was structured, in the beginning, during our sophomore year classes. We were obviously frustrated that we weren't able to do what we wanted. Because we were kind of being treated as if we all were the same [concentration.] So we were frustrated because we felt like we were not stretching our legs. Other people also felt that way. I think everybody was kind of in a disservice because, in trying to help everybody, it wasn't helping anybody. I feel like just now in these past few semesters, we're all finally starting to get what we want out of it. It's because we're doing what we want.
I: Yeah. Thesis is literally like, “okay, now go. You're free. Do what you want.” Especially Illustration -- do you remember two years ago when everyone in Illustration was completely frustrated, and switching out?
S: I always talk about this with Art Direction: specifically what's so frustrating — and I've said it to every professor I've had the chance –– We don't have electives for Art Direction. We have to choose between illustration or graphic design. Or we have to go to that department, and ask, “can I have a photo or film…”
N: And oftentimes there are prerequisites for the things that you actually would be interested in. But you can't take them, because you have to, say, take Photo 1. And say you know how to use a camera, you know how to do all this. But you can't take it because there are all these hindrances in the way.
S: But when people were complaining about Illustration specifically, I remember thinking, “I feel your pain, man. But do you realize we have nothing to choose from? Like... you have, like, Children's Book Illustration, you have so many options...”
I: Yeah. Most of the ComD electives are actually really illustration-focused.
S: Yeah, even graphic design. Like, coding? That’s one I don’t really get, though. I don’t know who that’s geared towards, I guess just anyone who wants to learn code.
N: Obviously these are great for the people who want them. But we've just been frustrated that we don't have that for Art Direction necessarily. Not to say that these classes aren't out there, it's just… you have to work a little harder to take them. You need to be approved for them or make a case to take them.
S: That's Art Direction as a whole… you have to prove your case for whatever you’re doing.
I: So, Art Direction classes: I guess you started taking them last year, right? When we started getting into our concentration? How would you describe those?
N: Branding. Everything was branding. Make a logo, who’s the audience, what’s the demographic?
I: So was there a lot of research and development involved?
S: Yeah, I guess I'm thinking of Ian's class specifically. He was all about research, while my other classes were less so. You just had to be able to explain, “this is why I'm making these decisions.”
N: Well my frustration with it was the fact that we were never actually making a product. We were just doing the research for it. And then as soon as we were ready to do something, they're like, “okay, we're done!” I thought, “what? We have nothing to show for this. I just have pages of research.” I wasn’t making anything. And whenever we would take the extra step and do something, just for our own sanity, they were like, “wow, so you just did this?” And we were like “Yes! That's what I wanted to do!”
S: I had a professor that had us finish a whole brand book in three weeks. I was like, “awesome. I'll get it done.” We got it done. Plus photo shoots. We did animation. I did photo shoots. Had it done. And people show up to class with not that much, or something up in the air and unfinished. And he kept extending the project. It was extended another month. We had been done in three weeks.
N: That was the majority of the semester.
S: I think art direction means something different to everyone. And people extend themselves however far they want.
N: I think there's a lack of communication in Communication Design, which is the inherent problem.
I: That is the T. That’s the irony of it all. I think especially two years ago when we were going through this new curriculum, its first year... and it was also our first year in ComD. I remember professors literally admitting to the students, “I have no idea what we're doing. I have no idea what’s going on.”
S: I also think depending on your teacher you get a completely different syllabus. They've started to make it so everyone's doing the same thing, which…. There are pros and cons. But I took certain professors because I thought that they would be pushing their agenda more than they did. I think sophomore year, your experience really depended on the professors because it was the first year of the curriculum. They made the classes what they wanted. And I think the years after us have a bit of a disservice because of it. Frank Franca, specifically, in our Dynamic Imagery class had us doing a two week process. The first week, you have your idea, and by the second week it would be done. And it may be music videos, animations. But: two week process. And you had like six videos because of it. And he was told by the department that he could only give out three, because it was too much. But still, it did push you. I feel bad for the grades after us, they didn’t get that. It pushed a lot of us in a way we needed. And it forced me to learn how to create videos, even though maybe they weren't that great.
I: I learned so much in such a short amount of time by being forced to do that. I think something golden that came out of sophomore year was learning how to conceive an idea without restraint, and learning how to make it happen in a quick amount of time. That’s actually a really good skill. I appreciated having to produce a bunch of work. And it was a year of experimenting, you know? It was our first year in ComD. It was a good system. I liked it. All right. So this leads me to my first question:
What led you guys to Art Direction? Why did you choose to major in ComD, and Art Direction specifically?
N: I think it kind of a subconscious thing. I didn't ever know that there was a job for what I wanted to do. When I was in fourth and fifth grade, I would have friends over to spend the night and I would do their makeup, or choreograph a dance, or set up a backdrop. I would take their picture. I just thought that was what I did for fun. I considered that a hobby. I like taking people's photos, but I never classified myself as a photographer because I didn’t think the whole process was considered photography. I felt it was more than that. I didn't know that was a job I could do. Initially I was trying to find the balance between art and making money, so I was like, “well, I guess advertising is that.” I didn't even really know what it was. It just sounded interesting. And as a transfer student, I had to apply for a major, I couldn’t be undecided. You had to make a case for why you want it.
S: I came in as Interior Design. I had a fine artist painting background. I don't know why they let me into Interior.
I: What was your portfolio like?
S: It was a lot of realism paintings. My concentration was, weirdly enough, people sleeping. My little brother on the couch, my dad taking a nap. I don't know why. I guess it sounds kind of creepy, but I guess my work now is kind of creepy. It came full circle. But I came in as Interior, and then I wanted to transfer into fine art: painting. But my professor, Dr. Webb, was like, “you're not going to make any money doing this.” I said “I know that.” But I really loved painting as a hobby. The more I thought about it, though, I was like, “I don't want to do this as a job.” And what I liked about Art Direction is that it wasn't very defined, it felt like I could find what I was doing within it. It seemed like the [major] that had the most wiggle room. Yeah. I just didn't know it was going to be as great as it has been. It was a gamble.
N: I feel like I got really lucky. I just landed in it, and it was the right spot. I think every year, I have a different idea of what art direction is, or I have a different understanding. Sophomore year, I would say it was like… a creative director at an agency, and that's all it was. You would direct people's work, like the graphic designer, etcc. And it is that, and it can be that, but it’s also much more. It can be directing photographers, it can be production design, working on film sets. It can really be anything, which is so cool.
I: If you had to broadly define it, how would you summarize that?
N: So my bar talk is, “they direct the whole look and feel of everything.” It's the environment, the location and the costumes and the colors.
S: I feel like it's really about making something fully come together, in one visual that's being contributed to by a lot of people. As an art director, you're making that happen. All these people come together to create one thing. Yeah. Which is really powerful. It's really fun. I love outsourcing people. Everyone's so talented. What’s frustrating about the curriculum though is that sometimes you're limited by having to do everything myself.
N: There’s so many pros and cons with that. You have to learn to do everything, but at the same time, there's so much talent here. And I feel like these projects could be ten times better if you had people really skilled in each of these areas all coming together.
I: It's hard. You kind of spread yourself thin by doing every single aspect of a project where it's like, “well, I'm maybe not the best retoucher, but, I love typography…”
N: I suck at type. And I’m always like, “damn it.”
S: Every time I call Isabel, I'm like, “how do I do this?” And you'll be like “literally just move it a little bit over.” And I'm like, “it's perfect.” But you see a really good balance of that in the film department. You see people on Instagram, and you see people who aren’t in film aren't all. There's someone who's organizing it. There are the actors. There's the director, the art director, the writer... it’s never one person. But then for some reason within Art Direction, we're expected to do that. Absolutely everything.
I: Film, as a major, is by far the most collaborative and communal. They have to essentially rely on each other and everyone has a very specific job. Some people are really specialized in certain things…
S: And they’re then sought out for that.
I: Yeah. They're getting well-practised, not only as an individual, but in working as part of a team, which I think is really valuable. Getting that in now before they even enter the industry.
S: Dude. Trusting someone else with your artistic vision is a lot. A lot. It’s really scary.
I: Working on a team is probably one of the biggest learning curves.
N: The learning curve is letting go.
I: Yeah. “I trust you, I chose you for a reason.” I want… I can envision a collaborative aspect of ComD built into the curriculum.
N: Well, I think they tried. I remember we all kind of complained about it sophomore year and then junior year we got a lot. They kind of threw random people together like, “okay, let's just get an illustrator, an art director and a graphic designer and put you on a project.” And maybe we had completely different styles, different interests… and for one project that could be fun. But I feel like that happened so frequently, for every group project. They just threw you all together and it was like, “This is not working. This is not the same style. It doesn't compliment each other in any way…”
I: The difference, I guess, is forcing people to work together, versus allowing them to choose who to work with. Maybe that's the kicker. How many group projects have you guys had? I've only ever had one.
N: I think I've had upwards of five or six. Viscom… I specifically remember that being the most painful. But again, that could be a really cool project for a one-time thing. Like, “you are different. Make it work.”
S: But in that same vein, I did work with people whose work I was curious about, or I had heard of them and always wanted to work with them. Obviously, if it works, it works. And if it doesn't, it doesn't. That was the hard part. The solution is not simple.
I: Honestly, there's beef every year. There’s no easy answer.
N: We go to an art school in New York City. It's not that bad. You know, we have it really good.
I: Yeah. I guess we can take a little break. So this is a segment that’s kind of silly, kind of quick. The name is completely stolen from this podcast that I listen to, “Food 4 Thot.” So, shoutout to them. It's called, “SwipeRight/Swipe Left.”
I'm going to name a bunch of different things in the art world, the art direction world specifically. A swipe left is a “no thank you.” A swipe right is a “like.”
And I may ask you to define each topic for anyone listening who may not be familiar. The first one is: King Kong magazine.
N/S: Right.
I: OK. Why? What is it?
N: Fantastic. It’s a magazine.
S: It's a biannual magazine.
N: The only rule is there are no rules.
S: The guy who runs it is all about breaking the grid. He lets everyone be in charge of their own work, and displays it in the way they would want it to be presented. He doesn't care about fitting into a box that is “fashion” or “art.” They have fun with it. It’s inspiring. You see some crazy stuff, some beautiful stuff.
N: Looking at it, you wouldn't see a cohesive brand. It’s really different.
S: They're all about celebrating artists in all fields, musicians, painters, film directors. Yeah, that A.I. Sophia? She was on the cover. But they touch on… the weird. They also touch on subjects like artificial intelligence, religion, and just go for it.
I: All right. The next one is trends, in art direction, photography, advertising. Trends in general, left or right?
S: Both? Cuz there are good trends and bad trends.
N: And I think if we didn't have trends, things would get boring. Trends are like waves. You need the good and bad.
S: I was thinking trends can get boring. I was thinking the reverse: trends make things boring. Because everyone starts following the trend.
N: Yeah, when everyone has the same thing. Like, I feel trends come and go and you either reject it or you take it. But either way, it keeps you thinking. You can even be inspired by the ugly ones. Because you think, “oh my god, I could do this so much better”
S: Trends can act as a baseline. You can make your own trend out of it, or totally reject it, thus making another trend out of it.
I: So I have one very specific trend that I have been noticing lately, and I'm sure you guys have as well. I'm calling this the hand trend.
N: Oh, my God. I immediately…. I know what you mean.
I: So for anyone listening, who may not be aware, or noticed that this has become some strange phenomenon over the past couple of years... I have noticed in a lot of brands’ photographs, products and advertisements, there is always some sort of hand extended, reaching. Sometimes there’s a solid color background.
N: Sometimes painted, or glittery….
I: It’s always reaching towards something, about to grab it. And I want to know where this originated, because everything is a copy of a copy of a copy. I want to retrace the steps.
S: Surrealism?
I: I mean, in more recent years.
N: Well, the first time I remember noticing it was when Wade and Leta came to the Pratt. They had a lot of those videos or photos with the hand. And I remember afterwards, like a month or so later, seeing a lot more of them.
S: Like with the [okcupid] D.T.F. ads. That's when I was like, “these are fabulous. And then I thought, “oh, it's just the same technique over and over.”
I: That’s funny, because I have Wade and Leta on this list.
S: I feel like I haven’t seen their work in two years.
N: I ran into them at the MoMA PS1 book fair.
I: That’s where every queer and creative come together.
S: I think their attitude is a swipe left, their work is a swipe right. They weren't very nice to the Pratt students that went up to them. I heard from a few people that the students were trying to be friendly but it didn’t go very well. So that's the T.
I: The next one is freelancing.
S: Got my eye roll. It’s a swipe left.
N: In my limited time freelancing, by that I mean about two years, maybe, I have never gotten to freelance with the kind of work I want to do. It's always been very commercial. It's like, “okay, I'm doing this because I need to make money” but my heart's not in it. And then I've noticed I get kind of stale and almost resent it, which is stupid because I'm like, “this is fantastic. I'm meeting people and making money and getting experience. Why am I so pent up about this job?”
S: I think it really depends on the job. If I was doing what I like to be doing for freelancing, I would be so goddamn happy. I'd be elated. But no, I'm contacted for freelancing to do stuff for a specific brand, which is not what I want. I’m not contacted for my style or for what I like to do.
N: And that would be the day when they contact you for exactly what you want to do. Contacting you for your style. Yeah, that would be the day.
I: Okay, so back to your personal work.
I want to know what you guys are working on now. A current passion project, if you could talk about it a little bit. It may be thesis.
N: Thesis is our opportunity to do our passion project for credit. Mine is about dreams. Specifically my own dreams. But yeah, I have crazy dreams. I've been doing a personal exploration of that and I'm going to do a video of five of them.
I: But it started out as a photo series, right?
N: Yeah. I did five photoshoots last semester. This semester I’m doing five videos that will turn into a short film. They're going to be wacky.
S: I am doing “Characterisation and Transformation.” That's my theme. Last semester I was doing “Moments and Reflections.” Little chapters of what I'm up to. My transformations are going to be self-portraits where I transform into pop culture characters that stood out to me when I was little, or even now as a young adult. So, becoming characters in horror films or movies I loved. I feel like the most recent generations are given so much stimulus. And I know that I gained some of my personality traits from watching certain films and people and I think that's really interesting. I'm layering in those portraits hidden and revealing moments. What it looks like to have a layered personality. I’m also doing the twelve signs of the Zodiac, creating characters with them. I’m trying to combine the feeling of gross, weird, and disturbing with something that's beautiful.
N: I think that's where the most powerful work lies. Contrast builds tension and interest. I think that's the way to be successful in whatever you're making. Even if it's just color. But when you do that with themes, it's even crazier.
I: So,
What are some of the things you guys are looking at? To be inspired, or in general, what are you interested in?
N: Jordan Peele. I just noticed that recent horror films have been layered with comedy. So you have a break and you're laughing. Then you go back to being scared. They're also speaking on very real issues. I think that Jordan Peele does a really great job balancing his films. He makes you put your guard down because you're laughing, and then you get scared and then you're realizing that like, “oh, this is kind of absurd. But wait a minute, is it really that absurd?”
S: Boots Riley. Ari Aster. A lot of filmmakers are starting to do this.
N: The way they handle it, they're also making it really beautiful to look at. So you're open to it and you’re paying attention.
I: Oh, we were just talking about this regarding Okja the other day, I was saying to Serina that I was actually very affected by the movie. It’s sort of hard to explain, but it's very campy and cartoonish. In a way that sort of draws you in, because you're like, “oh, this is a weird, crazy movie.” There are fictional creatures, CGI creatures. And I was talking about Margaret Atwood's quote about The Handmaid's Tale, “I didn't include anything in that book that isn't already happening.” She was creating this fiction that's not really fiction at all. That's what I was saying about Okja. Everything in that movie, about meat production and meat industrialization, is happening.
N: You laugh at first cause like, “that's so funny. Oh my God. That would never –– Wait a minute. That is happening.” It can be a metaphor for something that is really happening.
I: Yeah. We were talking about narrativizing something, and how people are more likely to listen to it. Instead of shoving a Food, Inc-like documentary in your face.
N: People will reject it. Deliberately avoid it because they know it's going to get preachy or whatever. What are you looking at Serina?
S: I'm really on Instagram all of the time. I follow any sort of magazine that has even a few good visuals. I'm looking at other people's work. It's usually some obscure, tiny magazine that has one hundred thousand followers maybe, but they're producing really interesting stuff. Sometimes I'll be working on something and I'll see them do something similar. And I'm like, “there it is.” That usually helps me, because I can see what I struggle with is the photography, making it all come together. “How did these people get the shot? At what angle? And how does it look?” But as far as ideas, I respond well to a narrative or a story. And combining different stories to make them more interesting
I: Yeah. You guys are both playing into storytelling, more than ever. You're both creating a narrative. Especially, with Neosha, through animation, and Serina with origin stories.
S: Yeah. Telling your story in an image. For both of my projects, I don’t want them to be obvious. There's a lot there. I want people to have to really look. And if they don't that's on them.
N: You want people to spend time with it.
I: So this is a question that I'm ending every interview with: What is the piece of art or design that had a really big impact on you? Maybe it even led you to decide, “this is what I want to do.”
N: I don't think I had a moment like that, because my mom was an artist. So since I knew what anything was, I knew about art. Maybe not in the same way a lot of people know about it. I was just exposed to it. I would go into her studio and I would do homework there while she was painting and listening to music. It was always a part of my life. I don't think I ever had that moment of deciding to go to art school. I actually tried to avoid it for a long time. Because I was always drawn into it as a kid. And people would always say, “ oh, just like your mom.” I tried other artistic pursuits. I did guitar lessons and theater. And I fell back into art because I just liked it a lot.
S: I was avoiding it for the opposite reason. No one in my family did art. So I didn’t think it seemed plausible. Everyone still treats me like I'm silly or I’m not doing work of any value. But my mom owned a needlepoint knitting shop for a long time, so I would sit and organize colors, and so I was exposed in that way. But I had been drawing forever. I was the first to ask for crayons at the dinner table when we went out. I don't know. I think it just kept manifesting. And then I guess a more subtle influence was film. It was always such a big part of my life. And I just kind of shoved it under the rug, thinking, “oh, it’s just movies, it's just entertainment.” But I was really affected by them. And I really felt like I was in them a lot of the time. I realized from talking to people that not a lot of people are like that. But when I'm watching a movie, I'm in the movie, I'm there.
I: Is there a movie that you distinctly remember being one of the first you were really affected by? Or do you have a memory of those early moments feeling really into it?
S: Well, I talk about horror films all the time. That was just something I grew up with because I had older cousins and an older sibling. That's all we watched. I thought that stuff was so easy and fun to watch. It was always my first suggestion in middle school or on a first date. Once this guy tried to take me to see The Vow. And I was like, “ok but… the second Paranormal Activity is out….” So those movies always affected me. If you can watch a horror movie with me… that’s the way to my heart.
N: It’s so hard to pinpoint one. I think mine was Harry Potter. My movie. I had the first one on VHS and I had this little tiny TV in my room that only played VHS. That was one of three [tapes] I had. I can still put it on and say every word. It’s magic. It's just so enticing, especially as a kid.
I: Talk about worldbuilding, you know. And now that's kind of what your job as an art director is.
S: I'm the biggest stickler now with writing and narrative. If it's a bad story, if it's bad writing, it's done. It's not worth watching to me. I'm taken out. [Harry Potter] really did that. They got us.
I: They really did. They got a whole generation.
S: But yeah, good storytelling. It’s gotten everyone for literally thousands of years.
I: Human history. In a nutshell. Yeah. So one thing I want to ask you guys –– I added this recently ––
How do you feel you’ve changed, from coming to Pratt, to leaving?
N: Our hair. Long and blonde, short and blonde.
I: Chopped. I’m speaking for myself.
S: I was like…you just go, “chopped.” But I feel as though meeting all these people at Pratt, and other New Yorkers, is really what made me come into my own. Made me become the person I’ve always wanted to be. There was a reason I came to New York.
N: That's so true. I think I'm just discovering the person I've always been, but I have never allowed myself to be.
S: And small towns… being with the same people for a long time really does limit you. And my first year, I realized I didn’t miss the people in my town that much. I really wasn't that connected to them. And in just a couple months here, I was like, “wow.” It’s not even that I made great connections with everyone around me… I just feel more of my own person. I had been missing that for so long.
I: Yeah. I think change is a necessary part of growth.
N: I find a lot of value in being uncomfortable, because that's when you grow. I was very uncomfortable for most of my transition to Pratt. Most people moved very far away from home. I didn't know anybody in New York. That process is very cool because it is uncomfortable. And you don't realize how much you're growing until you look back.
S: My biggest realization was how dependent I was before. Depending on certain people for emotional support. And taxes. I didn’t know what I was doing.
N: So I got here with all the transfer students, which was earlier than the normal move-in. I was completely by myself. My roommates weren't there yet. I remember going to my room after the people who'd moved me in left –– I say that because they weren't my family –– and they were like, “okay, bye. Have fun in college.” I walked into my dorm in Willoughby, and there’s no light switch. It was completely dark, because it was about nine o'clock at night. I hadn't unpacked a single thing. I walked in and flipped the light switch, and it didn’t turn on. And I just thought, “Oh, God.” I just sat on my bed in darkness. I start crying, thinking, “what the fuck did I just do?” But remembering that is so funny now. I just remember thinking that I’d made the biggest mistake. I was so scared. I thought, “I'm from Oklahoma. Nobody does this.” Yeah. But it’s so powerful to look back on that, and compare it to who I am now.
S: I had the opposite experience. Well, I was scared. But everyone in my family thought I was gonna be home within the first six months. They thought I'd be back in California. And I was like, no fuckers, I’m here forever. Everyone really thought I'd be running back.
I: Well, thank you guys so much for coming on.